There appears to be a lot of interest in reformulating problems in systems-theoretic terms these days (and rightly so, IMHO). For instance, I've been looking at a book by philosopher Alicia Juarrero, who wants to redefine the philosophical problem domain of action theory in the language of complex systems. I find in her work, for example, the following:
"In short, viewed as a complex dynamical landscape organized across various and interrelated dimensions, a peron's general state of mind is the high-level, distributed neural organization in place at the moment; its attractors represent available act-types, potential pathways through that dynamical self-organization. One implication of the previous chapter is that operating as a top-down constraint, that organization (a dynamical neurological structure of process as conscious and meaningful) can become the agent's virtual governor or order parameter. The resulting act-token is the constrained trajectory through this meaningful, self-organized region of neural space."
What strikes me about this passage is that Juarrero is a little dicey when it comes to pinning down what exactly constitute the attractor basis she refers to. If she could point empirically to attractor basins that are measurable in the firing of neural circuits, for example, then I would say she is definitely on to something.
In my reading, she essentially wants to recapitulate the concept of an intentional actor as an open system, replacining the hihgly-problematic 'executive' theory of action with an idea that intention arises as a complex interplay of neural dynamics, operating and self-organizing on multiple levels.
This typifies a use of systems theory I often find, but I am not certain it is warranted. It seems to me that the assumption here is that the patterns of self-organization that we have discerned through modeling or observing specific far-from-equilibrium homeostatic systems are general principles which we can apply generally to other phenomena. In other words, as I understand it the concept of self-organization is abstracted from modeled or observed instances. Are we therefore justified in taking these abstractions as general principles, and describing other complex systems in this way?
"In short, viewed as a complex dynamical landscape organized across various and interrelated dimensions, a peron's general state of mind is the high-level, distributed neural organization in place at the moment; its attractors represent available act-types, potential pathways through that dynamical self-organization. One implication of the previous chapter is that operating as a top-down constraint, that organization (a dynamical neurological structure of process as conscious and meaningful) can become the agent's virtual governor or order parameter. The resulting act-token is the constrained trajectory through this meaningful, self-organized region of neural space."
What strikes me about this passage is that Juarrero is a little dicey when it comes to pinning down what exactly constitute the attractor basis she refers to. If she could point empirically to attractor basins that are measurable in the firing of neural circuits, for example, then I would say she is definitely on to something.
In my reading, she essentially wants to recapitulate the concept of an intentional actor as an open system, replacining the hihgly-problematic 'executive' theory of action with an idea that intention arises as a complex interplay of neural dynamics, operating and self-organizing on multiple levels.
This typifies a use of systems theory I often find, but I am not certain it is warranted. It seems to me that the assumption here is that the patterns of self-organization that we have discerned through modeling or observing specific far-from-equilibrium homeostatic systems are general principles which we can apply generally to other phenomena. In other words, as I understand it the concept of self-organization is abstracted from modeled or observed instances. Are we therefore justified in taking these abstractions as general principles, and describing other complex systems in this way?
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Re: systems theory - principles?
Mon, February 27, 2006 - 6:29 PMtwo words:
prisoners dilemma -
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Re: systems theory - principles?
Mon, February 27, 2006 - 9:15 PMOne word:
Huh?
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Re: systems theory - principles?
Tue, February 28, 2006 - 9:43 AMI'll be honest, Im new to this stuff. Like, this post is the first step. I had to re-read things a couple times to decode them for myself, to get a handle on what was being talked about.
In discussion here, I think I will quite often resort to lay-person vocab, so I apologize if that slows things down.
To clarify, Im trying to understand - are you are making the connection that the 'available act-types, potential pathways through that dynamical self-organization' Juarrero refers to be 'the concept of self-organization ... abstracted from modeled or observed instances'?
If you are, then you are, on one hand, making assumptions about the evolving process of Neuro-activity. And then working to apply those assumptions to systems outside neuro-activity?
Im still trying to comprehend the question at hand.
I think that 'available act-types, potential pathways through that dynamical self-organization' applies very wonderfully to examples of plant growth through a biological community. ie: non-neural growth based on genetics, resource availability, and physical limitation.
is that a base comment? am I stating the obvious? -
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Re: systems theory - principles?
Tue, February 28, 2006 - 9:48 AMahhh. I didnt get to my point -
so, even a plants growth and movement within the biological system IS based on 'modeled and observed instances' (genetic memory). Yet the modification and developement of that genetic code is as this point, theoretically based on mutation and adaptation -
outside of modeled or observed there is 'ingenuity' - but that ingenuity, mutation from modeled and observed, will either sink or swim based on system dynamics.
is that BS? -
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Re: systems theory - principles?
Wed, March 1, 2006 - 10:39 AMSorry - I think I was unclear. My question really boils down to what exactly systems theorists are getting at when they posit self-organization. We have a situation where there are a number of scientists observing and modeling complex phenomena, and then we get a set of conceptual modeling tools that are very useful in describing some of them. Ideas like "attractor basin", "self-organization", and "phase transition".
These are indeed very useful concepts, but what I am questioning is what I perceive as the tendency to construct a "general model" of how complex systems work, and to then start applying that model to systems that appear complex IN PRINCIPLE.
In the case of the philosopher I cited, it' looks to me like she's using constructs to describe consciousness that don't entirely come from a direct observation of how the brain works. She has a general model of how complex systems work, and since the brain seems to exhibit complexity, she is applying conceptual tools that come from other areas of study, which also deal with complex phenomena.
Now, I'm not going to say that this is necessarily unwarranted, or won't be borne out in the long run. A lot of very interesting work has been done on self-organization in the brain. I'm just saying that in this particular case, Juarrero shows a quickness to apply a general model to a specific instance that may overshoot the generality of the paradigm she is interested in.
I think this is becoming increasingly common in the popular literature of complexity. It's very tempting, because systems theory appears on the surface precisely to offer a general model for understanding complexity. This, then, is my question. Is that valid? Does systems theory and self-organization provide a GENERAL MODEL for understanding complex systems, that we may apply to phenomena that appear complex? And if so, what is going on? Is this some kind of group of principles and statistical regularities that structure complex events, some kind of natural law? -
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Re: systems theory - principles?
Wed, March 1, 2006 - 1:19 PMthat was very clearly stated and i enjoyed reading your post. Thank you for clarifying the intent of your inquiry so cleanly.
I have no idea how to comment further though. I think its fairly easy to apply generalities discovered from one situation to another, Im not sure though, how deep and complete understanding your looking for in reference to that GENERAL MODEL.
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Re: systems theory - principles?
Tue, March 7, 2006 - 7:33 PMThere's no reason to believe that there's any such thing as natural laws. Any theory is just a way of describing what we understand about the way things are. General theories about complex systems are no different. They do indeed provide general models of how complex systems work, and many of those models are useful. And being useful is the most any theory can aspire to. -
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Re: systems theory - principles?
Tue, March 7, 2006 - 10:11 PMso... available act-types, potential pathways= theories and models.. ? -
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Re: systems theory - principles?
Tue, March 7, 2006 - 11:07 PMPotentialities (such as behavioral repertoires and pathways) aren't part of the universe, so they must be part of our descriptions of (our understanding of) the universe. Theories and models are a good way to organize those descriptions.
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Re: systems theory - principles?
Fri, March 10, 2006 - 9:21 PMI've been studying these matters on my own account for some time now, and have been able to recognize this apparently premature tendency to impose the notions of systems theory to several situations which, after some fashion, resembled structures/behaviors/developments commonly seen/described in systems theory.
There are two sides to the question you posed:
1) To what extent is it warranted that the models that proved useful in systems theory will apply to the situation/context at hand?
2) How can I demonstrate if such a partial (and useful) mapping exists between the theory and practical situation?
Both seem to be alike, but they are radically different.
The first has to do with what perceptions/cognitive mechanisms or categories led me to believe that such and such notion from systems theory could be brought to a particular problem.
The second has to do much more with how clearly defined/recognizable are the criteria for determining/recognizing if the notions brought/overlayed proved useful in the situation.
The first question is purely intuitive, and it has a lot to do with the particular way in which you acquired and practiced the notions of systems theory while you were learning them. The situation that seems fit for the application of such general principles will most likely appear to be so because of your perceptual capabilities/limitations, in a very general sense. If I learned that a chaotic systems, even if unpredictable with a comfortable amount of detail, eventually founds itself moving within the bounds of a certain region in a vector space, this will apparently lead me to believe that chaotic systems are not that chaotic at all, even though I cannot predict their behavior accurately.
Would applying this metaphor to any seemingly unpredictable system be irresponsible/unwarranted? Perhaps the person who learned them now considers useful to see his/her family as such a chaotic system, and will notice that, not surprisingly enough, her family, even though it presents certain 'random' behavioral fluctuations, never actually traspasses/goes beyond them. So the matter now would be finding those 'attractor' regions, what are their characteristics, how are they constituted, what provides them with stability and under what conditions would this region would morph or disappear, etc.
The analogy is unwarranted, and the very few categories that systems/complexity theory and the family seem to share, are the ones that the person recognized and used as anchors and points of reference for sustaining/justifying the imposed identity. Not much more can be said besides this as to what connects one thing with another. This leads me to the second question.
How can I determine if the model, through its apparent similitude with the current situation, will serve as a tool for prediction and further understanding?
One can move along the ontological dimensions that this problem poses, or one can choose to be pragmatic about it. Of course between this two extreme positions there are countless shades of gray.
If the person, by seeing his/her family as a chaotic system, is able to transport notions/tools from complexity theory, implement them (to the extent such a thing is possible) and monitor/evaluate the results, what does this say about the warranty of identity between the systems? That, if such an identity is not entirely demonstrable/warranted, you can still use the model and derive some benefit from it.
What is the likelihood that the model will eventually be found wanting as more and more situations do not conform/comply with its predictions? It is high. This is of no importance, because such is the destiny of a model, any model: to be eternally insufficient, to be in constant reevaluation and redefinition, to constantly lack the variables/correlations that convey precision in measurement and prediction in the future.
Premises about the world are built, premises tumble down. What remains constant is our ability to generate such models, and fine-tune them to better reflect reality, which, in pretty simple terms means to encompass those recent situations which the model didn't contemplate.
I apologize if my reply was too long; it's just that you posed an interesting question and, for some time, I had an episode similar to the one that you recognized in the philosopher.
It would be great to hear your thoughts on the matter. -
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prisoners dilemma
Sat, March 11, 2006 - 11:53 AMplato.stanford.edu/entries/...-dilemma/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma
sample to play with self-organisation:
prisonersdilemma.groenefee.nl/
simple game to play a computer yourself:
serendip.brynmawr.edu/cgi-bin...mma.perl
BTW, this is the subject which won Nash the Nobel -
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Re: prisoners dilemma
Sat, March 11, 2006 - 12:27 PMI know what the Prisoner's Dilemma is. My question is, what does this have to do with this thread? -
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Re: prisoners dilemma
Sat, March 11, 2006 - 12:28 PMJehu - I love what you wrote and I really appreciate your thoughtfulness. It will probably take me a couple of days to write a proper response. Thanks! -
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Re: prisoners dilemma
Sat, March 11, 2006 - 1:09 PMsorry
"Are we therefore justified in taking these abstractions as general principles, and describing other complex systems in this way?"
if the model fits, wear it! -
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Re: prisoners dilemma
Sat, March 11, 2006 - 2:42 PMHi Peter
I do not understand what you are saying, and my feeling is that you are being needlessly enigmatic. Please clearly say what connection you see between game theory and the points I have raised.
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