Is Science founded upon a fundamental error?

topic posted Wed, January 25, 2006 - 9:55 PM by  Unsubscribed
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This question relates to the subject of my life's work, and I've recently completed the first draft of an essay (in 5 parts) entitled, "A Geometric Foundation for a Contemporary Philosophy of Nature". For anyone interested in the subject, I'd like to make the essay available for your comments, criticisms, ideas and questions. I just now put Part 1 of the essay on my profile blog. The remainder of the essay, because it has so many photos, would be better sent by e-mail to anyone interested. It's brief, about 20 pages. My address is: lacanova@valornet.com
Oh, and there's also some info that was posted yesterday at www.smellingthecoffee.com that has a PDF about constructing the new geometric elements using coffee stirrers.
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  • Definitely no.
    • All right, that's 3-1. As moderator, I'm officially calling it: science is not founded on a fundamental error.
      • Unsu...
         
        yes...
        • I'm sorry, the polls are closed.
          • Unsu...
             
            sorry my ass... i dont think your sorry at all! lol!
            science needs debate, you cant just yes or no things your have to talk about it. this guys put some work out there at least discuss it with him for gods sake. just voteing no is a bit pompous dont you think?
            • If you read it, you would know it was not worth spending much time talking about it...
              • I was just kidding around. If anyone wants to have substantive discussion on this topic, please go ahead.
                • Re: Is Science founded upon a fundamental error?

                  Sat, August 12, 2006 - 12:38 PM
                  science is founded on the fundamental possibility of error... work in progress, remember?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.


                    The algorithm is called "The Scientific Method" - what we often think of as science is actually 'the set of results which come from that algorithm".


                    Science, for example, never denied that there might be Hydra and Unicorns and whatnot in the world - it was that there would be formed an umbrella of information which had been differentiated from the noise of the universe by

                    - the hypothesis/test/reframe algorithm
                    - the replicability algorithm (cold fusion anyone?)
                    and
                    - the documentation algorithm


                    Now if our dear unsubscribed author points to 'the implications attributed to the information differentiated from the noise using the algorithm of science' - there probably IS a fundamental error - the information in the umbrella under 'science' never claimed to point beyond itself. Science obsesses over the empirical truth - such truth being only findable in a rigidly controlled environment. Which the rest of the world never is!

                    As embodied in this framing:

                    In Theory, there is no difference between Theory and Practice.

                    In Practice, there is.


                    ;-b
                    • If "the" scientific method (glossing over the question of whether there's only one, for now) is an algorithm, then it's guaranteed to halt for any input.

                      In what way is "the" scientific method guaranteed to halt for any input?
                      • It reaches the moment of 'and that's all that can be confirmed or denied for now'

                        and waits for new information.
                        • That doesn't sound like the science I know.

                          Look at all the effort being put into, say, string theory or the HIV hypothesis. The lack of new information has not caused the scientific method to halt in those and other cases.

                          That's why I don't think scientific method is algorithmic. It's simply an inventory of proven, often domain-specific procedures that lead from naked observation to useful theoretical model and back to more sophisticated observation ad infinitum.

                          Scientists, the drivers of scientific method, don't "wait" for new information. They go to great lengths to *create* it.
                          • I'll start a new topic on this later today, then, because the scientific method is pretty demonstrably an algorithm...


                            in response to your point above - I thought that you were stating metaphorically that it _would_ reach a halting state...? Were you trying to make the point that it wasn't an algorithm because it wouldn't reach a halting state?


                            Where does it say that algorithms are 'guaranteed to halt for any input'?


                            We would _definitely_ be talking about an iterative algorithm - as you say right above, it "leads from naked observation to useful theoretical model and back to more sophisticated observation ad infinitum."


                            where are we not meeting up with our understanding, here?

                            ;-b
                            • Yes, I was trying to make the point that scientific method is not algorithmic because it doesn't reach a halting state.

                              It says that algorithms are guaranteed to halt for any input in many places, because that's part of the definition of an algorithm. Knuth's formulation is widely recognized, and includes his criterion of finiteness. Finiteness means that an algorithm must halt after a finite number of steps.

                              There's no problem with iterative algorithms. There's a problem with the "ad infinitum" part.

                              So what I'm saying is that scientific method is an inventory of accepted heuristics that lead to useful theoretical models that are empirically valid. Heuristics, not algorithms. It might not sound like much of a difference, but if we're talking about deep stuff like epistemology and an ostensible foundational flaw in the scientific enterprise, then I reckon it pays to use words very explicitly.
                              • I'm all for being very careful with our definitions, using the words explicitly. If there is a 'widely recognized' definition of algorithm that _defines_ algorithm as having a halting state after a finite number of steps, then I'll put forth first a 'sorry, wasn't aware of that'...



                                So if life in the universe starts from some twisting moment where the eat/replicate/die algorithm is born, it's only REALLY an algorithm if at some point much later in the universe, there's an _end_ to life?

                                Or that the algorithm is finite in it's personal application (personal to one organism), and is 'something else' as it applies to the collective organism, or to all of the collective organism called 'life'?


                                ;-b
                                • "So if life in the universe starts from some twisting moment where the eat/replicate/die algorithm is born, it's only REALLY an algorithm if at some point much later in the universe, there's an _end_ to life?"

                                  I don't think that life in the universe is a deterministic set of instructions (a procedure), much less one that is guaranteed to halt (an algorithm). I think calling it that would be an instance of confusing the map with the territory. We can build computational models of living systems, but that doesn't entail that living systems are in any way computational. (By the same token, we needn't assume that the Golden Gate Bridge is made of cotton twine and popsicle sticks).

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